Isnt this fun? NO!!
I recently wandered onto a blog that made my hair stand on end. Its called why south africa sucks (you can see it by clicking on the uhuru guru link below), and it really upset me. But putting aside the extreme racism of this blog, I spotted an article that a colleague of mine had written was reprinted on the blog without attribution, and commented on this. (turns out i'd missed the hyperlink to the original article, so i was wrong about the lack of attribution). But what really upset me was the treatment I received having commented. I've pasted the discussion below. I'm sure there will be lots of nasty comments following this move, but I was floored by the aggressive and childish response to a simple comment, and as is the nature of bloggers, felt compelled to blog about it.
Katie Possum said...
Hi.While I completely DISAGREE with the sentiments on your blog, I'm commenting now about something else: to ask you to try attribute the articles that you are reproducing correctly. Please give the site address from where you got them, and the journalist who wrote the article - its only professional decency.Thanks
10:10 AM
The Uhuru Guru said...
Katie Possum said..."Hi. While I completely DISAGREE with the sentiments on your blog, I'm commenting now about something else: to ask you to try attribute the articles that you are reproducing correctly. Please give the site address from where you got them, and the journalist who wrote the article - its only professional decency."
Gee Katie Possum, if you DISAGREE with the sentiments on the blog, why are you such an avid reader? Closet racist, perhaps? ;)Second point, take your blinkers off - every single article on this blog has a link to the source. Try clicking on the title (which is a hyperlink) which will take you to the original article. This is a non-commercial site, so we fail to see why we should promote the newspaper name. The source link already generates much traffic to their sites.
11:14 AM
Dickey Knee said...
Bullard is as careless as Firoz Cachalia and his wife, sporting jewellery openly in a public place.Was his window open, or simply not fitted with burglar bars?ALL the burglaries in the complex where I live have been through unprotected windows.
11:58 AM
Anonymous said...
DUUUUHHHHH Katie : You died your hair - you died while doing your hair???? Or did you dye your hair!
12:01 PM
The Uhuru Guru said...
Anonymous said..."DUUUUHHHHH Katie: You died your hair - you died while doing your hair???? Or did you dye your hair!"
LOL anon, I saw that too. She's probably also taking skin-darkening medication, and shopping for plastic surgery to have her schnozz flattened and her lips thickened. Hey Katie, they can also extend your jaw (super-reverse overbite) so you can have that 45 degree slope head angle ;) How sad that such a pretty girl (if the avatar pic is indeed hers) wants to deny her genes. I can understand Whacko Jacko's motivations, but Kooky Katie's is quite perplexing.
12:14 PM
Anonymous said...
I think Bullard is a twat being so chirpy and upbeat.If that bullet had gone a bit higher and to the left then suddenly it would have been a completely different matter and it would have been his funeral that we would be talking about.He is now making out to be a big hero, "He got shot, but he still believes in SA"He is now suddenly the poster boy for white ANC arse lickers.Next time he might not be so lucky.
5:37 PM
Anonymous said...
"katie possum"Must be using the computer while (her/his/can't decide yet) mother went to the store.
10:12 PM
knorrig said...
If that bullet had gone a bit higher and to the left..."Yeah, they should've shot him another arsehole.....preferably with a Patmor!...that would've at least saved us having to witness him take on the 'Madiba' role of White Crime Matyr! Useless LIBERAL IDIOT!
12:22 AM
jeff said...
Hi Katie Possum,Welcome to the blog. Please stay around and give your take on the issues raised. Intelligent and thoughtful people are welcome here, regardless of their views. Keeps the blog interesting. Hope you will have at it!
4:01 AM
Katie Possum said...
Wow! You guys have some serious chips on your shoulders. I am NOT a closet racist. I am NOT an avid reader of your blog, but of other blogs where I have seen you comment. Yesterday was the first time I ever visited your blog, and missed the hyperlinks (i'm happy to admit when I'm wrong). But as a journalist I know that I would be annoyed if I ventured upon an article of mine that was unattributed on another site.
"died my hair" - big deal. You're looking at a typo. It doesnt negate my point. And it is a childish reason to attack someone.as for sitting at the computer while my mommy is away - as above, this is a classic ad hominem fallacy. You're attacking the person because you cant attack their point. Furthermore, criticising from as anonymous doesnt add a lot of weight to your statements.
10:44 AM
knorrig said...
Jeff said,"Hi Katie Possum,Welcome to the blog. Please stay around and give your take on the issues raised."
NOOOO, please don't! The last thing we need is the Hollywood-philosophical musings of a 23-year old who has to tell the world about her hair color, listens to Madonna and reads Terry P!Rather go to News24...they've got all the right 'literature' for a young innocent little girl to 'find herself' in this ugly world raped by the Big Bad White Wolfmen!
12:02 PM
The Uhuru Guru said...
Dear Anonymous dufus who says "the bigots on this site should add swastikas to the posts", I was going to publish your pointless rant, but when you "dared" me, I just couldn't help but hit the reject button. Most comments get published, regardless of how facile, stupid and nasty they are. Try rise above infantile high school type 'dares' if you want to increase your chances of being posted.
12:22 PM
The Uhuru Guru said...
Katie Possum said "Yesterday was the first time I ever visited your blog".
Hmm, then I wonder who the Katie Possum was who posed here a few times over December...no matter Katie, we believe you. Oh, and Jeff's quite a nice guy actually, much more of a gentleman than I'll ever be, so don't paint him with the same brush you use for us incorrigible, hate-filled racists. Welcome to our dark, gloomy world, we hope you'll enjoy your stay and no, we don't offer free anti-depressant drugs- you'd better be emotionally ready to deal with the godawful content of this blog. Being a journalist, I assume you are?
12:31 PM
RSX said...
Being a journalist, I assume you are?WHAT?!? ANOTHER libby journalist?First, nic (who judging by his last post has seen the light), then inkonkoni, and now katie? I don't believe this.
1:22 PM
jeff said...
Hi Katie Possum,Some of your points are well taken. I spent some time reading your blog and came across a post from an ex Zimbabwe farmer in response to your comments about keeping a positive attitude about South Africa. You replied that you do have some thoughts about Zimbabwe. Could I ask you to share them with us? Thanks.
Here is the post to Katie Possum from The Granny Wrangler bloggist. I've copied it here because I thought it might be of interest to other readers of this blog:
"Always one to throw a spanner in the works...As a Zimbo who had her farm, livelihood and worldly possessions ripped away from her in the blink of an eye I have watched the rapid decline of a once fantastic country from a far too close for comfort perspective. It WAS fantastic and i'm sorry to say, better than SA ever was or will be. But that was then. 6 years ago i became a fully fledged 13-digit Id no. SA citizen and sought refuge in the sunny cape to study and subsequently work. I loved it. I learned to call it home. One has to. The thing is, i, like thousands of other Zimbos, have seen the patterns now happening in SA. Yip, the very same patterns which began the demise of what was once (excuse the cliché) the bread basket of africa. Do you have any idea the resentment and bitterness directed towards farmers who sold up and moved countries? They warned us all and we all stayed so fucking positive and buried our heads in our then fertile soil clinging to the hope that positivity and unity would see us through. Do you know what? It didn't. The one's who left, the ones who managed to sell their farms and make a new life for their children and families, they may have been scorned and resented but who feels like the arsehole who had everything ripped from them because they refused to heed the warnings and pay attention to all the signs? The ones who left got money for their farms and set up businesses, moved forex out of the country and put their children through good schools. The rest? Imagine being 65 and having not a cent. No pension to draw on. No escape. Now imagine moving to a foreign country in order to earn money to feed yourself, knowing that you will never be able to save up enough money to retire and will more than likely have to work until you die. Its real, and it's heartbreaking to watch. Don't get me wrong, optimism is great and i was as optimistic as i could be. But there comes a point when you have to think long and hard and actually LISTEN and absorb what is being said. Let it sink in. Instead of immediately jumping on the defensive and gunning down anyone who even mentions the word crime and SA in the same sentence, take the time to understand why they are saying these things. If you have lived through what Zim has gone through in the last 10 years your blood would run cold when you realised the EXACT same patterns happening south of the border. It is frightening. But whether you like it or not it's happening. Believe us. Don't believe us. We're all big enough to make our own decisions. I just hope that some of you will be spared the heartache and anguish so many of us have suffered - it's not something i'd wish on my worst enemy.Ok, i'm done. "
8:09 PM
Anonymous said...
Katie Possum on her blog, all rosy and cinnamon scented, says of the Springbok match at Twickers last year, "I wanted to cringe and die when I saw people waving the old flag at the rugby last year. I wish people who feel like that wouldnt identify themselves as South Africans...."
I would just like to bring to her attention the fact that one of the buggers who had the old flag draped over his shoulders was none other than one of her Noble Savages. He was making a statement about accepting the past and where SA had come from.I have as much contempt for the Katie Possum's of this world as she has for us evil racists. She should share a cell with a troop of sophisticated black gentlemen for the night (when she's not abroad spewing liberal propaganda for tourism SA and inviting tourists to their death) and then come and talk to us about how negative and racist we are and how she "cringes" when we identify ourselves as South Africans.
3:57 AM
Katie Possum said...
"The last thing we need is the Hollywood-philosophical musings of a 23-year old who has to tell the world about her hair color, listens to Madonna and reads Terry P!"
"Katie Possum on her blog, all rosy and cinnamon scented,"
Do you guys even know what an ad hominem arguement is? You can attack my writing, my music and literature tastes etc as much as you want - the problem is that is makes you look childish and DOESNT negate my point at all.
Jeff: thank you for your welcome. i wasnt necessarily painting you with the same brush, as I have yet to see your feelings on this issue.About that zim question: I dont think SA is going the way of zim. Crime, while still at an unacceptable level, is coming down every year. Employment is going up. Interests rates are fantastic. And most importantly, we are not run by a insane man who has held onto power for decades, and physically silences the opposition.
Uhuru Guru: I dont remember posting here in december, I had a quick look over the december archives and didnt spot anything I wrote, but it was only a quick look and i may have missed it. having said that, I do read nic's blog, so it possible that i followed a link from him to here at some point or another. having said that I am not an avid reader of this site. not then not now.
I'm going to go now, as I really dont have to waste my time being attacked on personal grounds by childish people who are too afraid to engage with the content of my point.
I'll try to avoid the temptation to come back and defend myself from the backlash this comment will surely have. I hope I'm able to just walk away, but i do tend to take the bait - personal flaw!
45 comments:
Don't stress about those folks. Sooner or later their terrible thoughts and deeds are gonna bite them in the arse, and we'll be sitting pretty.
The sad thing is is that you've now just attracted more traffic to his site, which he doesn't deserve, just the way he feels about the articles he feels he has to link to.
Ja, I know! Hence the mention of the personal flaw: I just cant let it go! Its really stupid of me, but i cant.
And I know I've opened myself up to loads of attacks from these guys.
Oops *sheepish grin*
ouch. not pleasant.
can't help but feel a little nauseas when i think that that calibre of blogger thought my comment on the whole zim vs sa would be of interest to his other readers.
TGW: i wouldnt worry about it. Jeff (the guy who quoted you) seems to be the nicest of the bunch. Having said that he has given no clue what his thoughts on racism and sa are, so who can tell?!
But how childish and petty were their attacks on me?
you really need to let it go.
i) racists are by definition stupid, so there really is no point arguing with them.
ii) their remarks are too childish to be really offensive.
thanks, anon! I know you're right. I've just got to stay away from blogs like this. if you cant bring them round using logic - you'll never bring them round :(
They're all a bunch of scared little anonymous people. Too afraid to put their real names up. I think you'll find most of the comments are from school kids.
You were perfectly dignified in your comments so I wouldn't worry about it. Every country has its freaks!
@ Katie
you say
"thanks, anon! I know you're right. I've just got to stay away from blogs like this. if you cant bring them round using logic - you'll never bring them round :("
True - keep going though. I have the same issue with some other racists masquerading as crime fighters over at crimexposouthafrica.net.
Over time though we have made a few of them go away or be too scared to write - its a full time job though and sometimes you wonder if it is worth it.
In the scheme of things they don't really have a readership that is anything more than a minority of a minority. I also believe that some of the people go back each day as a form of self flagellation, so unless they are masochists it must be pretty painful.
Sad.
Hey Katie
These people THRIVE on this kind of thing - they live for it. I had a whole bunch of them come stir up on my site, but those particular ones were from another racist site (I'm not mentioning names cause I refuse to give them publicity).
The best bet is to ignore them, and let them stew in their own bitterness and hate until they realise their lives are filled with nothing but negative vibes and miserable thoughts.
Giving attention is just what they want.
The South Africa Sucks site was started around the same time as the crimexpo one, and from what I remember it was quite funny in a tounge in cheek kinda way initially, until it got hijacked by the racists.
Dave, CrimeX, and Capdog:
Thanks for the support! I know I was fighting a losing battle over there so I've walked away. I've checked back and they're still posting silly things about me, but I'm letting it go and not responding.
Its not worth it.
Thanks again =)
Any relation do you think?
http://crimexposouthafrica.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/uhuru-night-of-the-long-knives/
bugger can't get the full link to do its thing.
My my.....it is so bloody hilarious to see a typical feel-good Oprah-nanny support group rushing in to console poor little traumatized Katie!
Maybe you should all huddle together under a lukewarm shower, sob in tandem to the soothing sounds of Kumbaja and scrub yourselves vigorously with Dove's new 'We are One' soap!
Morally refreshed by this purification ritual, you can all then take to the streets, hand out multi-coloured flowers and ask for donations to support the find-your-inner-child therapy of a Nobel Savage in Azania who has raped his 2-month old daughter to death!
Man, you are seriously some of the sorriest sacks of liberal shite that I've encountered on the web!
Hey Don, come take me on....when you've grown a pair of balls!
...pathetic you all are!
How many of you feel-good liberal twats have ever been to SA (besides Missy Possum-Bono)? When you have to live here and put up with the constant shit that we have to and get nothing but the "because of apartheid" excuse shoved down your throats, then come and talk to me about adopting a bushbaby and sponsoring aids orphans etc.
The sad truth is that you clowns are all talk.
It's funny how many of the so-called SA liberals are now sitting pretty overseas while their noble savages rape and pillage to their heart's content. Many of these liberals have quickly changed their views on Mandelatopia too.
Keep wearing your liberal bleeding hearts on your sleeves and we'll keep humouring ourselves on our blogs.
I honestly didn't realise there were still people who used the phrase 'noble savage' to refer to actual people. Fascinating. I wonder what other relics of colonialism have survived - I say colonialism because I'm sure the Afrikaaners wouldn't be stupid enough to buy into that rubbish. Oh, wait, they did. Relics of apartheid, relics of colonialims, relics of stupid.
So SA is a nation that has problems and, shock, horror, has violent crime. Get over it. If you don't like it, feel absolutely free to sod off and stop tarnishing our good name.
In the meantime, those of us who not only live here but have the guts to venture beyond our boomed suburbed and security guarded electric gates (like me) know that it's a great country with a great future. If you can't see it, may be you should come out of the bomb-shelter you crawled into the day we decided to do away with one of the most oppresive and openly racist systems in history and institute democracy.
Kate, they're not worth the energy. Logic is the preserve of those with intellect and some experience of the real world. This lot clearly haven't either.
Come home - there are lots of us who are really, really happy to live in such an amazing country :)
Oprah Hawk screeched'
"stop tarnishing our good name."
What good name?
- Highest rape statistics in the world (women and children!)
- 800 people dying of AIDS/HIV per day
- Second highest murder rate on the planet
- collapsing infrastructure
- etc etc etc
Don't coat shit with chocolate and sell it as success......no sane person swallows your feel-good Lala Land delusions anymore!
WAKE UP, WAKE UP, WAKE UP!
I also stumbled across the "SA sucks" site by accident a while back. It's a load of bollocks. Best ignored. As are the people who post there.
Hmmm...there seems to be a lot of "stumbling" going on in LaLa Land lately.........is Mandelatopia not living up to its much vaunted expectations....he...he!
Well, I'm off.....be careful when you land in ARSEZANIA sweet cheeks.....the Big Bad Black Wolf is yearning for tender flesh...to devour!
Cheerio....
....or in Katie's immortal Oh-so-sweet-Paris-Hilton-Jimmy-Choo
words, "aaw faanks guys - blushes - "
"I just have to walk away, - blushes again - "
PATHETIC!
It's amazing how much of this angry white male stuff is to be found on the web. You can watch old Apartheid era propaganda videos on Youtube, or visit any of a host of white supremacist websites (those that market themselves as such as well as those that pose as 'beacons of truth in a sea of liberal lies' or some other crap). They are the same prophets of doom who were afraid that their houses would be taken by force in 1994 (and claimed to see their domestic workers taking measurements for curtains), the same people who claimed that the ANC was injecting oranges with HIV infected blood in the build-up to the election, who claim that when Mandela- that old terrorist- dies, white people will be driven into the sea, and various other myths designed to make ignorant white folk kak in their pants.
I guess it's best to avoid any discussion with them on the web really. Those sort of websites aren't really frequented people looking for open and honest debate so much as affirmation of their own prejudices. It's a bit like logging onto a porn website and telling the members that you think what they are doing is degrading to women. You would be right. But they aren't going to want to hear it.
Thankfully the views they hold belong to a minority, even if that minority is has disproportional representation on the web.
Bloody hell, that's a bit unnecessary. Shades of Enoch Powell, methinks
Haha. This is such a waste of time. While I agree that this country is most certainly the hardest country to not be a racist in, I do not have the negative outlook that 'SA Sucks' seems to have.
I don't understand why someone would go through the immense amount of effort of running a blog about why something sucks. Jesus, I think a lot of things suck, I don't have a blog for each one of them.
The sad thing is is that these guys aren't stupid. I don't for one second doubt the intelligence of the people behind 'SA Sucks'. However, this doesn't mean that they can't be influenced and persuaded.
I love this country. I stay here and I will not leave. This is not like Zimbabw. No matter how hard you try to juxtapose them, you simply cannot.
In conclusion: just leave each other alone. Rather just don't comment on each others' respective sites and let each hold their own view.
I agree with Katie, but I also know that arguing with flaming racist bigots is a completely futile exercise.
In the infamous words of Eric Cartman: Go with Christ, bra.
Oh Katie. You let them bait you? They live for this shit. I've had these fights too, and I, like you, struggle to walk away. The "all muslims are terrorists" one was my most impressive. I was all sorts of namby pamby liberalism, and i clearly don't know anything about islam, or about terrorism. Despite having lived in a muslim country for the last several years, and grown up in a place where I was taught to recognise bombs.
I am also infinitely amused by someone trying to fight Hawk with stats. Oh if they only knew. Hawk is one of the most well-informed people about SA's politics and social situation that I have ever known.
But all this aside. The simple truth is that racist, bigotted, prejudiced people have no interest in facts or logic. All you will ever get trying to discuss anything with this sort of troll (and I use the word in the slimy, under the bridge, pre-internet sense) is accusations of being "Oprah", apparently, and mockery for reading Terry Pratchett. I'm guessing TP goes over their heads anyway.
You know me, Kate. I am not one to back down from an argument. But a very wise woman told me once that I needed to learn to pick my battles. And these morons are really not worth picking.
Thus endeth the vitriolic rant.
Hey Belgatherial!
Lot's of bla bla from LaLa Land again.....huh?
But, critisize me as much as you want to....I've never hurt any woman or child!...
....but this guy will...
(quote from one of your saintly Noble Savages on our blog);
"Wowee are you guys bitter. this article is a piece of shit. all i hear is the anger of impotence. did it hurt in 1994 when we took away all your power and turned you into our bitches? what's it like to be emasculated you weak powerless fucks? does it feel like a big black cock is raping you? HA. VIVA AZANIA"
https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=37326601&postID=8893782635127788154
What can I say...except....be careful please!
*sigh* Yes, there are bad black people. Just like there are bad white people. But your assumption that the colour of someone's skin pre-empts their morality is facile and stupid. And you yourself are a clear indication of that.
I honestly can't believe there are still people who use the term "Noble Savage". *giggle*
OK, I know, now I am letting myself be baited. So I'm going to take my liberal self out of this conversation now.
Hi Everyone
I'm sorry I havent been responding to the comments here. I've enjoyed the response to this from two different perspectives. One: the support, although not the intention of the post, was very welcome. Thanks!
Two: watching the clash of opinions, and the way people choose to express them. Such as Knorrig starting every comment with an insult.
I havent been replying to comments, because I really meant it when I said I'm trying to let it go. The comments about me on the original thread kept going for a while, and focus turned here, but I am not waging in here again.
Thanks again to all the people who spoke up for us "evil libbies" - apparently we'll burn in hell, but at least its warm there =P
Hey, to the best of my knowledge, all the fun people go to hell anyway. ;)
Katie Possum said -
"I'm not going to comment on the reasons for crime or the zim comparison. I have my opinions on both"
So if you have opinions, esp about the Zim analogy, why not express them so that we can judge whose are more realistic? This is a very important topic and Granny Wranglers story was both poignant and very well-expressed and doesnt deserve a haughty "no comment" to be airily dismissed as you have done. It seems to me that you are either pretending not to see the similarities or ignoring them and hoping they will go away.
Your final comment "let's hope we can buck the trend on this one too!" speaks volumes about your denialist attitude.
As for the nuclear dismantling, you seem to forget that that was done by the white govt under orders from the Americans because they didnt trust the ANC (can you guess why Katie?). So that event actually contradicts your (implied) trust in the good intentions of the ANC.
africa addio:
I did respond to the Zim question, not immediately, because I felt that The Granny Wrangler's comment (while very well written) had missed the point of my post, which is that while acknowledging the crime problem, I love SA. and i wanted to stay topic-focused. Having said that, I did reply when asked again by Jeff, and you just missed it above. So for your benefit, I'll repeat myself:
"About that zim question: I dont think SA is going the way of zim. Crime, while still at an unacceptable level, is coming down every year. Employment is going up. Interests rates are fantastic. And most importantly, we are not run by a insane man who has held onto power for decades, and physically silences the opposition"
As for nuclear dismantling: doesnt matter whether apartheid sa or anc dismantled it, my point was that it is a cool thing in our history, unparalleled in the world.
Furthermore, SA didnt give to any other American disapproval during apartheid, why would they to this? I believe that I am right on this, but if you have a source that says otherwise, please share it.
Thanks.
"As for the nuclear dismantling, you seem to forget that that was done by the white govt under orders from the Americans because they didnt trust the ANC (can you guess why Katie?)."
Yes there was diplomatic pressure, but it had nothing to do with the anc. THe u.s.a, france and the soviet union all applied pressure (as is always applied to states sekking weapons).
i)this does nothing to detract from the decision to actually comply - numerous other states ignored the same pressure- India, Pakistan, Israel etc. Its not simply a case of america orders, everyone else has no choice.
ii) the pressure had fuck all to do with a lack of trust for the anc, but rather for the incumbent government. because they didn't trust the ANC? weird then that president botha announced SA's intention to join the non-proliferation treaty in 1987. before the ANC and other organisations were unbanned in 1990 (and even longer before formal negotiations about transition to democracy began in 1991). i.e. long before the ANC were perceived as a potential government-in-waiting.
It seems weird that i need to point this out but the apartheid government was considered to be a "rogue state". ie a pariah on the internaional stage- hence sanctions and hence concern over them acquiring nukes.
Reasons why Katie believes (or is it “hopes”?) SA is “not going the way of Zimbabwe”…..
1) Crime is coming down every year.
Oh really? Why would you believe a govt that deliberately suppresses (presumably in order to manipulate) crime statistics that anyway are increasingly unreliable as the newly affirmatised police farce (many of whom are reportedly “functionally illiterate”) often simply fail to respond to crime or refuse to issue (or improperly issue) dockets? And how can anyone trust the wild-eyed minister of "safety and security" (comrade Nqakula) whose response to “those people who complain about crime” (ie, whites one presumes) is to “f...off back to Europe” (words to that effect) and his equally wild-eyed “police commissioner” (comrade Selebi) who has been implicated in drug-dealing and lots more. (none of which will ever be “proved” as the “party” will rally around and obstruct any investigation). To use the remark forever associated with Richard Nixon “would you buy a used car from these men?”
For what it is worth, given that our pipe-smoking president/philosopher has declared that crime is “merely a perception”, my own perception is that violent crime (esp against whites) is getting much worse, notably in Pretoria (ag, sorry Tshwane) a city that was until quite recently considered the safest in SA.
2) Employment is going up.
??? Courtesy of another manipulated ANC “statistic” I suppose?
3) Interest rates are fantastic
??? Compared to where…Zimbabwe?
4) We are not run by a insane man who has held onto power for decades,
Instead we are “ruled” by power-crazed fanatics who have vowed to cling to power “forever”.
And don’t forget, for 20 years Mugabe was lauded by wishful-thinking liberals as a model African leader.
5) and physically silences the opposition
“Mickey Mouse Parties” (to quote Mandela) like the DA are tolerated (although only barely) because they are, as YET, no threat to the ANC’s power. For example, one of the niceties of genuine democracy is for the PM/President to have regular private chats with the leader of the official opposition. But Emperor M’beggi has refused to meet (even once) Tony Leon, which makes one wonder whether democracy (not crime) is the “perception” he talks about so much.
But when, say in 10 years time, the ANC’s arsenal of vote-manipulating tricks (free houses, water, electricity, etc) economic extortion (BEE) and historical excuses (legacy of racism, apartheid, etc) is exhausted and the economy is in tatters and they finally face an opposition capable of unseating them, they will revert to the exact same bully-boy tactics as their old comrade and marxist mentor, Mugabe. Except it will be much, much worse…! Remember, by that time the ANC, like ZANU-PF, would have been over 20 years in power, and would have committed fraud and corruption (and worse) on such a massive scale that, like Mugabe, they will have NO CHOICE but to use whatever means necessary to remain in power. Sad, but true.
“I am hopeful about South Africa, but I am not optimistic” – Helen Suzman
Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.
To be fair - young idealistic white liberals like you and your friends who have been spoon-fed on the doctrine of “innate racial equality” have not forgotten the lessons of history – you cannot forget what you were deliberately never taught in the first place…!
Remember - anyone under 30 who is not a liberal has no heart; anyone over 30 who is not a conservative, has no brains.
1) Crime: I'm not sure what to say to this other than you're just getting childish. When confronted with solid evidence to the contrary you simply deny it's true. It’s a bit like a kid with chocolate all over his face denying that he ate the bar. Your point boils down to nothing more than yelling "no, it’s not true. The facts you cite are part of an evil conspiracy".
Unless you can give us something more substantive than your "own perception" and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories - the fact remains: crime is on the decrease. see for example: http://www.issafrica.org/CJM/statgraphs/index.htm
Perceptions are unreliable for at least 2 reasons: i) its the absolute amount that matters to perceptions not relative shifts e.g. if fifty murders happen in year 1 and twenty five in year two that’s a pretty impressive reduction in the murder rate (50% for people like Africa addio), but the total amount of people affected, doesn't reset itself annually, its still 75 people who have been murdered, and that creates the impression that things are getting worse, even though the total is increasing at a decreasing rate, (which is all the police can reasonably be expected to do since they can’t travel back in time). And ii) as JAK pointed out (in another of Kate’s comments sections), people's perception of their own risk level is out of kilt with any kind of reasonable probability (I would venture to add the third reason that YOUR perceptions are based on little more than that it suits, and serves to legitimise, your racial prejudices.)
2) Jobs: You’re gonna struggle to claim that this is an ANC conspiracy, since these stats are usually collected and analysed by independent bodies (Std Bank, Econometrica, Stats SA , the EDGE Institute right through to the world bank , British ministries ODI and DFID, and the IMF) all of whom say that you’re just lying.
3) Interest Rates: here’s some economics for dummies- low interest rates are good. Interest rates represent the cost of borrowing, which means that low interest rates lead to capital investment which leads to growth. Interest rates are also just off something like a twenty year low, so that, as Kate said, is fantastic.
(I suspect from your comparison to zim that you’ve confused interest rates with the inflation rate, but since that has been within the target band of 3-6% for over 5 years you’re wrong on that count too)
4) Power crazed fanatics: This is one of my favourite tricks by people of your ilk: when confronted with a complete lack of evidence to support their claims they point to the future and say ‘just you wait’. The ANC has, since 1912, done nothing to indicate they are for anything other than democracy (and no having an overwhelming majority does not make this a one-party state) , but for some reason this doesn’t stop people like you from saying that they will morph into dictators in the not too distant future. Given that people have been saying we’re gonna be properly fucked ‘in five to ten years time’ since 1994 and fuck all has even begun to happen, why aren’t you beginning to get a little sceptical about the reliability of these predictions?
5) : this is the best you can come up with? The president and Tony Leon aren’t golfing buddies? I think you’ll find that the functioning of a democracy is based on a great deal more than the relationship between leaders - for example the functioning of an independent judiciary as a check on the power of the legislature and executive (challenge me on the South African judiciary , I dare you).
@jono,
thanks for your well-considered (although, jusging from history, assuredly wrong) rebuttal of my opinions.
Interest rates - in a normal economy, which Zim obviously is not, one assumes that high interest rates go hand-in-hand with high inflation.
My point stands however - only a cock-eyed optimist could describe SA interest rates as "fantastic".
We'll agree to disagree on the rest, and yes "wait and see!" indeed. But, if in a coin-tossing game you observed 49 "tails" in a row, wouldnt it be foolish to expect (and bet heavily on)"heads" appearing on the 50th. Need I explain the analogy?
@Dylan
"fat old racist moron"
You seem like the sort who likes throwing dirt at random, hoping that some of it will stick to something or someone.
One hit from 4 attempts is as below average as your intellect.
"Hateful, blasphemous, prejudiced, vulgar, rude or ignorant remarks
are the music of a free society, and the relentless patter of idiots like Dylan is how we know we're in one."
@ all
Give yourselves a real education and get the DVD of the most realistic documentary movie ever made about Africa.
Be afraid of what you all wished for - be very afraid...!!
Okay, so it was a fairly childish dig. But no more so than your own at 'young white liberals... who have been spoon-fed on the "doctrine of innate racial equality"'.
But when you so smugly dismiss innate racial equality with a pair of quotation marks, you are probably going to piss some people off.
As for your coin-tossing analogy, the same can be used for what jono has already argued. Time and time again rumours have spread through white South Africa, and tannies across the country have bought generators and frozen bread in preperation for the onslaught. Which never came. So if on the last 49 occasions we have been warned of the swart gevaar it never materialised, why should we believe that it will on this occasion?
@Dylan
In case it flew right over your head the "49 tails" analogy was in reference to the consistent (and surely by now predictable) failure of black majority-ruled states
(not only in Africa - eg, Haiti) - and the ethnic-cleansing of virtually all whites through a combination of anti-white racism (AAction,BEE, "transformation"), rampant crime, massive corruption, total chaos, and occasionally (when the white minority didnt get the message) torture, mutilation and slaughter.
Maybe 49 was a slight exaggeration, but its definitely more than 40 in a row. Predictable surely?
As I said do yourself a favour and watch the movie.
ciaou, Africa Addio
The problem with your coin analogy is that it only works if each coin toss is performed with the same coin(or sufficiently similar coins). I don't believe that South Africa is sufficienly similar to Zim (or any other failed state).
The only thing you've given us is skin colour: 'The Zimbabweans are black, the south africans are black therefore we're heading down the same road'. That's not enough for me. There are far more important indicators in terms of the success of democracy - the judiciary, property rights, free media, structure of the economy etc.I'm busy writing a longer piece that i'll try get kate to post in this regard.
Incidentally what is the title of the documentary you mention?
BOO!
ha ha..only pulling your socks, dudes!;)
@jono
I don't believe that South Africa is sufficienly similar to Zim (or any other failed state).
Yep, you're right there dude, SA is different, and can you guess what that big difference is..???
Incidentally what is the title of the documentary you mention?
did my pseudonym not ring a bell?
never mind -
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/07/19/234405.php
I don't what saddens me more, the ugliness or the sheer ignorance of all. It is sad that people still exist in this day and age with such malevolent belief systems. I guess some people live in very sheltered environments and seldom take the time to get to know anyone who is different to them. Who is the REAL savage then?
Really well said, Noodle!
sjoe but that's a hectic read! Not wanting to sound naive but I kind of knew these people (I will not lower myself to call you something degrading or dehumanising as I deal with the fact that we are all the same in equality!) existed in the world out there but not that they would actually try & come in force & try to actually argue their case or any ridiculous justification for their pathetic beliefs!
South Africa may have it's problems but they are far outweighed by their positives! Us South Africans, both at home & abroad are proud of our heritage & will stand up for what we believe in & love! We have a passion for the people & the land, a real want to make a go at it - which is exactly what we are doing! We don't need white supremist, disgusting individuals to try & degrade us with silly talk about colour & savages. Really now!
Kate: well done for standing up for what you believe in!
Just ignore these wankers the next time they come round. Don't even comment or listen to them! It's only a waste or your valuable time!
KaB
I see that the white male is still vilified by these "feel good", guilt-laden liberals.
Katie Possum (an attractive white lady NOT living in Africa) tells us that crime is going down and and unemployment is going up. Where does she get these figures from ? Second, has she ever wondered why Sub-Saharan Africa has no record of any civilisation ? Has she ever wondered why they haven't invented the wheel ? Oh, yes, let's blame white men again.
And what are her thoughts on the ANC disarming South African citizens or its parallels in history ?
What does she thing of whites, in general ? Does it not bother her that under "evil" white rule the population and the life expectancy of her beloved "noble savages" increased significantly, yet under "democratic" black rule and "freedom" they have decreased ?
Does it not bother her that Gregory Stanton, a world renowned expert on genocide, has SA listed as stage 4 on his 8 stages of genocide ? (www.genocidewatch.org)
Yes, us South African whites are so evil. We were so evil that we built the largest hospital in the world (Baragwanath) exclusively for blacks and staffed by the best trauma doctors in the world. (Not any more it seems).
If we were so bad, why did blacks flee to SA during Apartheid ? If we were so bad, why were there black millionaires during that time (e.g. the Kunene brothers ) ?
Actually, the most important question that I want to ask Miss Possum is this:
Have you ever had an honest conversation with a black african about race ? Have you ever asked a black african why their lives are so shit ? Go ahead, ask them.
Why are you overseas and not living in SA?.....the place you so desire and love and respect, come and live with us ...we need another victim, we are running out here, some people are already on there second round as a victim please come back and bring some more runaways....
Come on sweetie pie, we're waiting for a answer. Why are you in UK and not in flappie land? mmmmmmm makes me think.
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